1) So I can mix disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate and they will exchange ions to make potassium sodium tartrate??
2) Can you confirm that if I react tartaric acid with NaHCO3 it won't make disodium tartrate. If so how is that possible, why would't it neutralise both ends of the acid?
1) So I can mix disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate and they will exchange ions to make potassium sodium tartrate??
2) Can you confirm that if I react tartaric acid with NaHCO3 it won't make disodium tartrate. If so how is that possible, why would't it neutralise both ends of the acid?
You started a topic that, depending on what you want to achieve, can be easy or difficult. To obtain a solution with a stoichiometry of Rochelle salts it is enough to stoichiometrically mix sodium and potassium hydroxides with tartaric acid. By evaporating the solution to dryness you will get solid with a composition corresponding to the Rochelle salt, although it will practically not be there. The old American patent, which you can easily find on the Internet, says about the crystallization of this salt.
You started a topic that, depending on what you want to achieve, can be easy or difficult. To obtain a solution with a stoichiometry of Rochelle salts it is enough to stoichiometrically mix sodium and potassium hydroxides with tartaric acid. By evaporating the solution to dryness you will get solid with a composition corresponding to the Rochelle salt, although it will practically not be there. The old American patent, which you can easily find on the Internet, says about the crystallization of this salt.
Ok. You can neutralize 1 mol NaHCO3 with 1 mol tartratic acid. You get Monosodiumhydrogen tartrate. In a second step you need of course a potassium source, like KHCO3, K2CO3 or KOH. You can also mix disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate dissolved in water.
Ok. You can neutralize 1 mol NaHCO3 with 1 mol tartratic acid. You get Monosodiumhydrogen tartrate. In a second step you need of course a potassium source, like KHCO3, K2CO3 or KOH. You can also mix disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate dissolved in water.
Perhaps by neutralising the tartaric acid with a 50/50 solution of NaHCO3 and KHCO3. I dont have KHCO3. Even if I did have it how could I know that it wouldn't make potassium sodium tartrate and not disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate? The only source of K ions I have is KNO3, KCl and KMnO4.
Perhaps by neutralising the tartaric acid with a 50/50 solution of NaHCO3 and KHCO3. I dont have KHCO3. Even if I did have it how could I know that it wouldn't make potassium sodium tartrate and not disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate? The only source of K ions I have is KNO3, KCl and KMnO4.
@OP, It is a forum rule (see red link) that you must first provide your attempt or give your thoughts before we can help you.
I have read the rules, and know that I should provide proof of my attempt, but since I haven't tried anything (besides googling it), I can't.
I don't know how to add two different ions on my acid. I could neutralise it with idk like Na2CO3 or NaHCO3, but then I'd be left with disodium tartrate, right? That is the core problem for me. How do I get a salt with 2 different ions? Can I even do it?
@OP, It is a forum rule (see red link) that you must first provide your attempt or give your thoughts before we can help you.
I have read the rules, and know that I should provide proof of my attempt, but since I haven't tried anything (besides googling it), I can't.
I don't know how to add two different ions on my acid. I could neutralise it with idk like Na2CO3 or NaHCO3, but then I'd be left with disodium tartrate, right? That is the core problem for me. How do I get a salt with 2 different ions? Can I even do it?
1) So I can mix disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate and they will exchange ions to make potassium sodium tartrate??
2) Can you confirm that if I react tartaric acid with NaHCO3 it won't make disodium tartrate. If so how is that possible, why would't it neutralise both ends of the acid?
Btw this is really helpful
1 yes. 2 It is a matter of amount. 1 mol Sodiumhydrogencarbonate (0.5 mol sodiumcarbonate) + 1 mol Tartratic acid gives only the sodiumhydrogentartrate. If you take more sodiumhydrogencarbonate then of course you get full neutralisation.
1) So I can mix disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate and they will exchange ions to make potassium sodium tartrate??
2) Can you confirm that if I react tartaric acid with NaHCO3 it won't make disodium tartrate. If so how is that possible, why would't it neutralise both ends of the acid?
Btw this is really helpful
1 yes. 2 It is a matter of amount. 1 mol Sodiumhydrogencarbonate (0.5 mol sodiumcarbonate) + 1 mol Tartratic acid gives only the sodiumhydrogentartrate. If you take more sodiumhydrogencarbonate then of course you get full neutralisation.
First things first: do you understand how the stoichiometry works? How the result of the reaction can depend on amounts of reagents?
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I don't know how to add two different ions on my acid. I could neutralise it with idk like Na2CO3 or NaHCO3, but then I'd be left with disodium tartrate, right? That is the core problem for me. How do I get a salt with 2 different ions? Can I even do it?
In a general case there is no sure way of making a double salt. In most cases even using correct amounts of all reagents you will get a mixture of most thermodynamically stable salts. Rochelle salt is one of the special cases - it is more stable than the mixture of disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate.
First things first: do you understand how the stoichiometry works? How the result of the reaction can depend on amounts of reagents?
Quote from:
I don't know how to add two different ions on my acid. I could neutralise it with idk like Na2CO3 or NaHCO3, but then I'd be left with disodium tartrate, right? That is the core problem for me. How do I get a salt with 2 different ions? Can I even do it?
In a general case there is no sure way of making a double salt. In most cases even using correct amounts of all reagents you will get a mixture of most thermodynamically stable salts. Rochelle salt is one of the special cases - it is more stable than the mixture of disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate.
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2) Can you confirm that if I react tartaric acid with NaHCO3 it won't make disodium tartrate. If so how is that possible, why would't it neutralise both ends of the acid?
Btw this is really helpful
2) Can you confirm that if I react tartaric acid with NaHCO3 it won't make disodium tartrate. If so how is that possible, why would't it neutralise both ends of the acid?
Btw this is really helpful
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You can also mix disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate dissolved in water.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_sodium_tartrate
The potassium salt you described KNO3, KCl or KMnO4 would pollute your product. Permanganate additionally would oxidize the tartrate.
You can also mix disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate dissolved in water.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_sodium_tartrate
The potassium salt you described KNO3, KCl or KMnO4 would pollute your product. Permanganate additionally would oxidize the tartrate.
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The only source of K ions I have is KNO3, KCl and KMnO4.
The only source of K ions I have is KNO3, KCl and KMnO4.
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I have read the rules, and know that I should provide proof of my attempt, but since I haven't tried anything (besides googling it), I can't.
I don't know how to add two different ions on my acid. I could neutralise it with idk like Na2CO3 or NaHCO3, but then I'd be left with disodium tartrate, right? That is the core problem for me. How do I get a salt with 2 different ions? Can I even do it?
I have read the rules, and know that I should provide proof of my attempt, but since I haven't tried anything (besides googling it), I can't.
I don't know how to add two different ions on my acid. I could neutralise it with idk like Na2CO3 or NaHCO3, but then I'd be left with disodium tartrate, right? That is the core problem for me. How do I get a salt with 2 different ions? Can I even do it?
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1 yes.
2 It is a matter of amount. 1 mol Sodiumhydrogencarbonate (0.5 mol sodiumcarbonate) + 1 mol Tartratic acid gives only the sodiumhydrogentartrate. If you take more sodiumhydrogencarbonate then of course you get full neutralisation.
1 yes.
2 It is a matter of amount. 1 mol Sodiumhydrogencarbonate (0.5 mol sodiumcarbonate) + 1 mol Tartratic acid gives only the sodiumhydrogentartrate. If you take more sodiumhydrogencarbonate then of course you get full neutralisation.
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Quote from:
In a general case there is no sure way of making a double salt. In most cases even using correct amounts of all reagents you will get a mixture of most thermodynamically stable salts. Rochelle salt is one of the special cases - it is more stable than the mixture of disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate.
Quote from:
In a general case there is no sure way of making a double salt. In most cases even using correct amounts of all reagents you will get a mixture of most thermodynamically stable salts. Rochelle salt is one of the special cases - it is more stable than the mixture of disodium tartrate and dipotassium tartrate.
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