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Why use a Cobas Fara centrifugal analyser and not a more modern...
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+ Enzyme activity
+ Enzyme kinetics
+ Medical biochemistry
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Mark Smith
Why use a Cobas Fara centrifugal analyser and not a more modern...
Modern analysers are superb and open.BTS 330 Semi automated analyser Biosystems Spain is very open and progamable for at least 100 tests including enzymes,graphs and turbidimetry.I used one for twelve years.When the machine crashed,I ordered for complete mother board and screen which brought my machine to a new one.It has its complete extremely automated and open brand as A15 and A25.Check it out.
Modern analysers are superb and open.BTS 330 Semi automated analyser Biosystems Spain is very open and progamable for at least 100 tests including enzymes,graphs and turbidimetry.I used one for twelve years.When the machine crashed,I ordered for complete mother board and screen which brought my machine to a new one.It has its complete extremely automated and open brand as A15 and A25.Check it out.
For anybody out there that still has a Fara and if finding difficulty in buying the rotors, AS Diagnostics (www.asdiagnostics.co.uk) supplies them and services them. Doubt if they would service ones outside the UK but I'm sure they'd sell you rotors.
For anybody out there that still has a Fara and if finding difficulty in buying the rotors, AS Diagnostics (www.asdiagnostics.co.uk) supplies them and services them. Doubt if they would service ones outside the UK but I'm sure they'd sell you rotors.
I agree with many of the views of Walter . We often use "modern" equipment with open channels to adapt techniques and reagents for procedures that interest us, sometimes with the aid of technical experts of the instrument ( research use is usually minor and shareable with routine analyzes, whether different channels are used ) . Moreover, one must be very careful with instruments like the Cobas Mira and the like, because they allow readings to an end ; it is always necessary readings to two points and the first point usually distanced mix sample / reagent time periods on the order of 20 seconds. In this time period , if the sample matrix is different from that of the calibrators , calibrators may behave differently from our samples ( calibrators very fast reaction and slower in eg samples) and can produce erroneous results .
I agree with many of the views of Walter . We often use "modern" equipment with open channels to adapt techniques and reagents for procedures that interest us, sometimes with the aid of technical experts of the instrument ( research use is usually minor and shareable with routine analyzes, whether different channels are used ) . Moreover, one must be very careful with instruments like the Cobas Mira and the like, because they allow readings to an end ; it is always necessary readings to two points and the first point usually distanced mix sample / reagent time periods on the order of 20 seconds. In this time period , if the sample matrix is different from that of the calibrators , calibrators may behave differently from our samples ( calibrators very fast reaction and slower in eg samples) and can produce erroneous results .
I would like to add some arguments to the discussion if there is a niche for a centrifugal analyzer in research and/or diagnsotics. When I started working on laboratory Genetic Metabolic Diseases in 1989, the lab already had two (old) Cobas Bio machines for measuring enzyme activities. I noticed that the versitility and flexibility of these machines is great. The optical unit, with flash lamp, in combination with cuvetterotor and electronics is well thought. A few years later we bought two COBAS FARA machines which even had bigger opportunities in sample and/or reagent handling but the optical unit was/is the same. Both FARAs are still running today. But as Roche stopped producing and maintaining the FARA in 2001 because, as I’m told by a Roche representative, the machine was not making no more profit due to the open system (labs were making there own reagents, etc), we have been looking for replacement. Of course there are several semi-automatical spectrofotometers for sale but they all have less possibilities of the COBAS FARA, like batch-wise absorption and especially fluorescence measurements in one machine. We now have, next to the old FARAs, a pipettingrobot in combination with a platereader. Soon we encountered some problems like temperaturecontrol of the plates (important when measuring enzyme activities), and control of the pathlenght in the well. The first problem we resolved by using stripwells in a aluminium mould (own production) to keep the incubations at the right temperature. The pathlenght is especially important with absorbance measurements as the absorbance is dependent on the pathlenght (Lambert-Beer law). The meniscus in a well is not straight (whereas in the COBAS FARA it is!). We are now dealing with this issue by measuring the pathlenght in each well after the incubation by measuring the infrared absorbance of water at 900 nm and 998 nm. We are not certain that these problems are the reason, but we do not reach the detectionlimit from the COBAS FARA on this robot-plate reader-system. We are dealing with these cons (temperature, detectionlimit, lack of batchwise measurements) but in the meantime we are also looking for a solution. One of that is to rebuild a COBAS FARA-like machine and make a more modern machine. We are now in a phase that it is technically possible but are looking for funding and collaborators…..
I would like to add some arguments to the discussion if there is a niche for a centrifugal analyzer in research and/or diagnsotics. When I started working on laboratory Genetic Metabolic Diseases in 1989, the lab already had two (old) Cobas Bio machines for measuring enzyme activities. I noticed that the versitility and flexibility of these machines is great. The optical unit, with flash lamp, in combination with cuvetterotor and electronics is well thought. A few years later we bought two COBAS FARA machines which even had bigger opportunities in sample and/or reagent handling but the optical unit was/is the same. Both FARAs are still running today. But as Roche stopped producing and maintaining the FARA in 2001 because, as I’m told by a Roche representative, the machine was not making no more profit due to the open system (labs were making there own reagents, etc), we have been looking for replacement. Of course there are several semi-automatical spectrofotometers for sale but they all have less possibilities of the COBAS FARA, like batch-wise absorption and especially fluorescence measurements in one machine. We now have, next to the old FARAs, a pipettingrobot in combination with a platereader. Soon we encountered some problems like temperaturecontrol of the plates (important when measuring enzyme activities), and control of the pathlenght in the well. The first problem we resolved by using stripwells in a aluminium mould (own production) to keep the incubations at the right temperature. The pathlenght is especially important with absorbance measurements as the absorbance is dependent on the pathlenght (Lambert-Beer law). The meniscus in a well is not straight (whereas in the COBAS FARA it is!). We are now dealing with this issue by measuring the pathlenght in each well after the incubation by measuring the infrared absorbance of water at 900 nm and 998 nm. We are not certain that these problems are the reason, but we do not reach the detectionlimit from the COBAS FARA on this robot-plate reader-system. We are dealing with these cons (temperature, detectionlimit, lack of batchwise measurements) but in the meantime we are also looking for a solution. One of that is to rebuild a COBAS FARA-like machine and make a more modern machine. We are now in a phase that it is technically possible but are looking for funding and collaborators…..
Hallo, I have worked with centrifugal analyzers, closed analyzers and highly efficient modern analyzers such as Hitachis (later Modulars) from Roche, Advias from Siemens, and those from Abbot like the Architect. The analyzers from Siemens, Roche end Abbot use only microliters (2-10) of sample, are multichannel analyzers and have an extremely high resolution (close to 1/10000 extinction-units). The reagents are also in part extremely cheap (for example creatinine for less than 5 cents). it is clear of course, that immunologic methode are more expensivhe, due to the higher costs for antibodies. Many of the analyzers use often reagents from Roche, which have a distribution rate in Germany of more than 50%. We have also applied research tests or tests .with different human specimens, such as urine and capillary blood and even animal specimens or research samples.without troubles. One example was to apply a method with diluted capillary blood for glucose measurement with the Architect. Abbot even helped, to program the instrument.These instrumensts are mostly completely open with free use of sample and reagent volumes, wavelength, duration of measurment and more. The Instrument manufacturers are naturally interested to make money with their own reagents, but they also have to do everything, to keep their instruments in the laboratory. I think, that the centrifugal analyzers are out of future, if you see the powerful characteristics af a modern analyzer in a modern laboratory of clinical chemistry or laboratory medicine. Sighart Golf
Hallo, I have worked with centrifugal analyzers, closed analyzers and highly efficient modern analyzers such as Hitachis (later Modulars) from Roche, Advias from Siemens, and those from Abbot like the Architect. The analyzers from Siemens, Roche end Abbot use only microliters (2-10) of sample, are multichannel analyzers and have an extremely high resolution (close to 1/10000 extinction-units). The reagents are also in part extremely cheap (for example creatinine for less than 5 cents). it is clear of course, that immunologic methode are more expensivhe, due to the higher costs for antibodies. Many of the analyzers use often reagents from Roche, which have a distribution rate in Germany of more than 50%. We have also applied research tests or tests .with different human specimens, such as urine and capillary blood and even animal specimens or research samples.without troubles. One example was to apply a method with diluted capillary blood for glucose measurement with the Architect. Abbot even helped, to program the instrument.These instrumensts are mostly completely open with free use of sample and reagent volumes, wavelength, duration of measurment and more. The Instrument manufacturers are naturally interested to make money with their own reagents, but they also have to do everything, to keep their instruments in the laboratory. I think, that the centrifugal analyzers are out of future, if you see the powerful characteristics af a modern analyzer in a modern laboratory of clinical chemistry or laboratory medicine. Sighart Golf
I would be very interested to know if anyone has any idea of how many FARA's are still used routinely. No scientific basis for my request, just that I was a Roche customer for many years from 1978, first with Centrifichem, COBAS BIO and then FARA...then I worked for Roche for the past 26 years and will retire next year. For me the FARA was the most wonderful and flexible invention, and I was able to automate so many applications in my lab at that time. It would be nice to give it a mention in my closing speech...there are are still people working here in R&D in Switzerland who remember it fondly...
I would be very interested to know if anyone has any idea of how many FARA's are still used routinely. No scientific basis for my request, just that I was a Roche customer for many years from 1978, first with Centrifichem, COBAS BIO and then FARA...then I worked for Roche for the past 26 years and will retire next year. For me the FARA was the most wonderful and flexible invention, and I was able to automate so many applications in my lab at that time. It would be nice to give it a mention in my closing speech...there are are still people working here in R&D in Switzerland who remember it fondly...
Thank you, I am not looking for a second hand analyzer, more at what a modern analyzer is lacking (if at all) for certain researchers. Possibly to develop a dedicated research analyzer. I am intregued by the enthousiasm the Fara still evokes.
Thank you, I am not looking for a second hand analyzer, more at what a modern analyzer is lacking (if at all) for certain researchers. Possibly to develop a dedicated research analyzer. I am intregued by the enthousiasm the Fara still evokes.
Thanks for your arguments. An open source analyzer would be interesting. how many labs do you think would want to use such an open source analyzer instrument? I see that you are having to deal with a lot of issues that are not an issue with the FARA.
Thanks for your arguments. An open source analyzer would be interesting. how many labs do you think would want to use such an open source analyzer instrument? I see that you are having to deal with a lot of issues that are not an issue with the FARA.
Hallo! If such an analyzer works in a certified laboratory,, such as ours in Giessen, you have to certify such a non-certified method, of couse in order to apply it for human specimens. Mostly, this is not a problem. Sighart Golf
Hallo! If such an analyzer works in a certified laboratory,, such as ours in Giessen, you have to certify such a non-certified method, of couse in order to apply it for human specimens. Mostly, this is not a problem. Sighart Golf
Hi to everyone. I am very pleased that the topic of Cobas Fara has come up! I worked for a number of years in a diagnostic company but only used bench top analysers post 2000 and mainly closed systems.
I am based in UK and would like to start a part time blood testing service.
I am very much interested in using a Cobas Fara 2 as
one has come up for sale. I have previous experience of using Cobas Miras.
Being part time I have no need for high throughput machines and want to keep purchase cost to a minimum. The old systems are open, fairly user friendly if you don't mind using old software and I think they look great from a nostalgia point of view.
However compared to the Mira there is very little information online about the Fara and this is where I need advice please.
Can someone please tell me if there was a Fara before a Fara 2? The Fara 2 is referred to as an immunoassay analyser but can it also test normal General Chemistries such as ALT, ALP, Creatinine, Glucose, Bilirubin, Cholesterol etc?
Are there any Reagent suppliers that can provide parameter settings for the Fara 2 and calibrators/Controls with targets for this machine?
And with regards to regulation and blood testing is it ok to test patient blood using a derived open channel providing all QC is within specified range or better to use parameters provided by suppliers or even closed systems and programs preset?
Lots of questions I know but all input is greatly appreciated. Many Thanks.
Hi to everyone. I am very pleased that the topic of Cobas Fara has come up! I worked for a number of years in a diagnostic company but only used bench top analysers post 2000 and mainly closed systems.I am based in UK and would like to start a part time blood testing service. I am very much interested in using a Cobas Fara 2 as one has come up for sale. I have previous experience of using Cobas Miras.Being part time I have no need for high throughput machines and want to keep purchase cost to a minimum. The old systems are open, fairly user friendly if you don't mind using old software and I think they look great from a nostalgia point of view.However compared to the Mira there is very little information online about the Fara and this is where I need advice please.Can someone please tell me if there was a Fara before a Fara 2? The Fara 2 is referred to as an immunoassay analyser but can it also test normal General Chemistries such as ALT, ALP, Creatinine, Glucose, Bilirubin, Cholesterol etc?Are there any Reagent suppliers that can provide parameter settings for the Fara 2 and calibrators/Controls with targets for this machine?And with regards to regulation and blood testing is it ok to test patient blood using a derived open channel providing all QC is within specified range or better to use parameters provided by suppliers or even closed systems and programs preset?Lots of questions I know but all input is greatly appreciated. Many Thanks.More
Modern analysers are superb and open.BTS 330 Semi automated analyser Biosystems Spain is very open and progamable for at least 100 tests including enzymes,graphs and turbidimetry.I used one for twelve years.When the machine crashed,I ordered for complete mother board and screen which brought my machine to a new one.It has its complete extremely automated and open brand as A15 and A25.Check it out.
Modern analysers are superb and open.BTS 330 Semi automated analyser Biosystems Spain is very open and progamable for at least 100 tests including enzymes,graphs and turbidimetry.I used one for twelve years.When the machine crashed,I ordered for complete mother board and screen which brought my machine to a new one.It has its complete extremely automated and open brand as A15 and A25.Check it out.
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VOTE
For anybody out there that still has a Fara and if finding difficulty in buying the rotors, AS Diagnostics (www.asdiagnostics.co.uk) supplies them and services them. Doubt if they would service ones outside the UK but I'm sure they'd sell you rotors.
For anybody out there that still has a Fara and if finding difficulty in buying the rotors, AS Diagnostics (www.asdiagnostics.co.uk) supplies them and services them. Doubt if they would service ones outside the UK but I'm sure they'd sell you rotors.
More
VOTE
I agree with many of the views of Walter . We often use "modern" equipment with open channels to adapt techniques and reagents for procedures that interest us, sometimes with the aid of technical experts of the instrument ( research use is usually minor and shareable with routine analyzes, whether different channels are used ) .
Moreover, one must be very careful with instruments like the Cobas Mira and the like, because they allow readings to an end ; it is always necessary readings to two points and the first point usually distanced mix sample / reagent time periods on the order of 20 seconds. In this time period , if the sample matrix is different from that of the calibrators , calibrators may behave differently from our samples ( calibrators very fast reaction and slower in eg samples) and can produce erroneous results .
I agree with many of the views of Walter . We often use "modern" equipment with open channels to adapt techniques and reagents for procedures that interest us, sometimes with the aid of technical experts of the instrument ( research use is usually minor and shareable with routine analyzes, whether different channels are used ) .
Moreover, one must be very careful with instruments like the Cobas Mira and the like, because they allow readings to an end ; it is always necessary readings to two points and the first point usually distanced mix sample / reagent time periods on the order of 20 seconds. In this time period , if the sample matrix is different from that of the calibrators , calibrators may behave differently from our samples ( calibrators very fast reaction and slower in eg samples) and can produce erroneous results .
More
VOTE
I would like to add some arguments to the discussion if there is a niche for a centrifugal analyzer in research and/or diagnsotics. When I started working on laboratory Genetic Metabolic Diseases in 1989, the lab already had two (old) Cobas Bio machines for measuring enzyme activities. I noticed that the versitility and flexibility of these machines is great. The optical unit, with flash lamp, in combination with cuvetterotor and electronics is well thought. A few years later we bought two COBAS FARA machines which even had bigger opportunities in sample and/or reagent handling but the optical unit was/is the same. Both FARAs are still running today. But as Roche stopped producing and maintaining the FARA in 2001 because, as I’m told by a Roche representative, the machine was not making no more profit due to the open system (labs were making there own reagents, etc), we have been looking for replacement. Of course there are several semi-automatical spectrofotometers for sale but they all have less possibilities of the COBAS FARA, like batch-wise absorption and especially fluorescence measurements in one machine. We now have, next to the old FARAs, a pipettingrobot in combination with a platereader. Soon we encountered some problems like temperaturecontrol of the plates (important when measuring enzyme activities), and control of the pathlenght in the well. The first problem we resolved by using stripwells in a aluminium mould (own production) to keep the incubations at the right temperature. The pathlenght is especially important with absorbance measurements as the absorbance is dependent on the pathlenght (Lambert-Beer law). The meniscus in a well is not straight (whereas in the COBAS FARA it is!). We are now dealing with this issue by measuring the pathlenght in each well after the incubation by measuring the infrared absorbance of water at 900 nm and 998 nm. We are not certain that these problems are the reason, but we do not reach the detectionlimit from the COBAS FARA on this robot-plate reader-system. We are dealing with these cons (temperature, detectionlimit, lack of batchwise measurements) but in the meantime we are also looking for a solution. One of that is to rebuild a COBAS FARA-like machine and make a more modern machine. We are now in a phase that it is technically possible but are looking for funding and collaborators…..
I would like to add some arguments to the discussion if there is a niche for a centrifugal analyzer in research and/or diagnsotics. When I started working on laboratory Genetic Metabolic Diseases in 1989, the lab already had two (old) Cobas Bio machines for measuring enzyme activities. I noticed that the versitility and flexibility of these machines is great. The optical unit, with flash lamp, in combination with cuvetterotor and electronics is well thought. A few years later we bought two COBAS FARA machines which even had bigger opportunities in sample and/or reagent handling but the optical unit was/is the same. Both FARAs are still running today. But as Roche stopped producing and maintaining the FARA in 2001 because, as I’m told by a Roche representative, the machine was not making no more profit due to the open system (labs were making there own reagents, etc), we have been looking for replacement. Of course there are several semi-automatical spectrofotometers for sale but they all have less possibilities of the COBAS FARA, like batch-wise absorption and especially fluorescence measurements in one machine. We now have, next to the old FARAs, a pipettingrobot in combination with a platereader. Soon we encountered some problems like temperaturecontrol of the plates (important when measuring enzyme activities), and control of the pathlenght in the well. The first problem we resolved by using stripwells in a aluminium mould (own production) to keep the incubations at the right temperature. The pathlenght is especially important with absorbance measurements as the absorbance is dependent on the pathlenght (Lambert-Beer law). The meniscus in a well is not straight (whereas in the COBAS FARA it is!). We are now dealing with this issue by measuring the pathlenght in each well after the incubation by measuring the infrared absorbance of water at 900 nm and 998 nm. We are not certain that these problems are the reason, but we do not reach the detectionlimit from the COBAS FARA on this robot-plate reader-system. We are dealing with these cons (temperature, detectionlimit, lack of batchwise measurements) but in the meantime we are also looking for a solution. One of that is to rebuild a COBAS FARA-like machine and make a more modern machine. We are now in a phase that it is technically possible but are looking for funding and collaborators…..
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Hallo,
I have worked with centrifugal analyzers, closed analyzers and highly efficient modern analyzers such as Hitachis (later Modulars) from Roche, Advias from Siemens, and those from Abbot like the Architect.
The analyzers from Siemens, Roche end Abbot use only microliters (2-10) of sample, are multichannel analyzers and have an extremely high resolution (close to 1/10000 extinction-units). The reagents are also in part extremely cheap (for example creatinine for less than 5 cents). it is clear of course, that immunologic methode are more expensivhe, due to the higher costs for antibodies. Many of the analyzers use often reagents from Roche, which have a distribution rate in Germany of more than 50%. We have also applied research tests or tests .with different human specimens, such as urine and capillary blood and even animal specimens or research samples.without troubles. One example was to apply a method with diluted capillary blood for glucose measurement with the Architect. Abbot even helped, to program the instrument.These instrumensts are mostly completely open with free use of sample and reagent volumes, wavelength, duration of measurment and more. The Instrument manufacturers are naturally interested to make money with their own reagents, but they also have to do everything, to keep their instruments in the laboratory.
I think, that the centrifugal analyzers are out of future, if you see the powerful characteristics af a modern analyzer in a modern laboratory of clinical chemistry or laboratory medicine.
Sighart Golf
Hallo,
I have worked with centrifugal analyzers, closed analyzers and highly efficient modern analyzers such as Hitachis (later Modulars) from Roche, Advias from Siemens, and those from Abbot like the Architect.
The analyzers from Siemens, Roche end Abbot use only microliters (2-10) of sample, are multichannel analyzers and have an extremely high resolution (close to 1/10000 extinction-units). The reagents are also in part extremely cheap (for example creatinine for less than 5 cents). it is clear of course, that immunologic methode are more expensivhe, due to the higher costs for antibodies. Many of the analyzers use often reagents from Roche, which have a distribution rate in Germany of more than 50%. We have also applied research tests or tests .with different human specimens, such as urine and capillary blood and even animal specimens or research samples.without troubles. One example was to apply a method with diluted capillary blood for glucose measurement with the Architect. Abbot even helped, to program the instrument.These instrumensts are mostly completely open with free use of sample and reagent volumes, wavelength, duration of measurment and more. The Instrument manufacturers are naturally interested to make money with their own reagents, but they also have to do everything, to keep their instruments in the laboratory.
I think, that the centrifugal analyzers are out of future, if you see the powerful characteristics af a modern analyzer in a modern laboratory of clinical chemistry or laboratory medicine.
Sighart Golf
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VOTE
I would be very interested to know if anyone has any idea of how many FARA's are still used routinely. No scientific basis for my request, just that I was a Roche customer for many years from 1978, first with Centrifichem, COBAS BIO and then FARA...then I worked for Roche for the past 26 years and will retire next year. For me the FARA was the most wonderful and flexible invention, and I was able to automate so many applications in my lab at that time. It would be nice to give it a mention in my closing speech...there are are still people working here in R&D in Switzerland who remember it fondly...
I would be very interested to know if anyone has any idea of how many FARA's are still used routinely. No scientific basis for my request, just that I was a Roche customer for many years from 1978, first with Centrifichem, COBAS BIO and then FARA...then I worked for Roche for the past 26 years and will retire next year. For me the FARA was the most wonderful and flexible invention, and I was able to automate so many applications in my lab at that time. It would be nice to give it a mention in my closing speech...there are are still people working here in R&D in Switzerland who remember it fondly...
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Thanks!
Maybe one just should ask, instead of assuming a system is not open.
Thanks!
Maybe one just should ask, instead of assuming a system is not open.
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Thank you,
I am not looking for a second hand analyzer, more at what a modern analyzer is lacking (if at all) for certain researchers. Possibly to develop a dedicated research analyzer. I am intregued by the enthousiasm the Fara still evokes.
Thank you,
I am not looking for a second hand analyzer, more at what a modern analyzer is lacking (if at all) for certain researchers. Possibly to develop a dedicated research analyzer. I am intregued by the enthousiasm the Fara still evokes.
More
VOTE
Thanks for your arguments.
An open source analyzer would be interesting. how many labs do you think would want to use such an open source analyzer instrument?
I see that you are having to deal with a lot of issues that are not an issue with the FARA.
Thanks for your arguments.
An open source analyzer would be interesting. how many labs do you think would want to use such an open source analyzer instrument?
I see that you are having to deal with a lot of issues that are not an issue with the FARA.
More
VOTE
Hallo!
If such an analyzer works in a certified laboratory,, such as ours in Giessen, you have to certify such a non-certified method, of couse in order to apply it for human specimens. Mostly, this is not a problem.
Sighart Golf
Hallo!
If such an analyzer works in a certified laboratory,, such as ours in Giessen, you have to certify such a non-certified method, of couse in order to apply it for human specimens. Mostly, this is not a problem.
Sighart Golf
More
VOTE
VOTE